Seriously. Interesting as this discussion has been (and increasingly far removed from the original subject), I think it has run its course. I’m closing comments on this thread.

“A vocational school, also sometimes referred to as a trade school is one operated for the express purpose of giving its students the skills needed to perform a certain job or jobs. It is usually a post-secondary school…”

What you didn’t include was the end of that sentence nor any of the next. Allow me to complete it:

“…but in some instances may take the place of the final years of high school. Vocational schools do not exist to further education in the sense of liberal arts, but rather to teach primarily or only job-specific skills, and as such are better considered to be institutions devoted to training, not education.”
[Wikipedia Definition of Trade School, Sept, 2005.]

I take the title, ‘trade school’ to be vastly different from what we do at Digipen. Digipen is NOT around to train students in a particular skill. Digipen is around to educate students interested in a *field of study*. When they leave here, if they have not learned how to LEARN, they will be useless in years, if not months.

In an attempt to dispell your ignorance, I will detail factual differences that separate Digipen from a Trade School.

1.”…giving its students the skills needed to perform a certain job or jobs.”

The students who graduate from Digipen aren’t trained for the game industry, they’re *prepared* for it. They can and DO get other ‘jobs’ in completely different industries. A sizable contingent end up working at Microsoft doing non-game, highly-technical work. They have all of the education of a ‘Computer Science” graduate from a high-powered 4-year university.

2- Trade Schools don’t have a significatn percentage of graduates going on to graduate school. Graduates from Digipen can and DO go on to graduate school. Give me the name of another ‘trade school’ that has sent graduates to NYU, Brown, and other graduate schools this year (within a graduating class of under 100).

3- “[A trade school] is usually a post-secondary school but in some cases may take the place of the final years of high school.” Digipen has a master’s program in computer science. How many trade schools offer master’s degrees? Mastery of a trade comes with its application, not with its study. A sizeable fraction of Digipen *undergraduates* already hold degrees from other institutions (Oxford, Princeton, Northwestern, others).

4-”…do not exist to further education in the sense of liberal arts…”
Again, I’ve got to hit you over the head with facts here. Perhaps you’re unware of what “liberal arts” means:

“The term liberal arts has come to mean studies that are intended to provide general knowledge and intellectual skills…” [Wikipedia, "Liberal Arts",Sept., 2005]

Many of the courses taught at Digipen are indeed taught only for the purpose of expanding the student intellectually. Tell me what purpose our current quantum mechanics course serves for someone not going into physics? Perhaps you could be so proud as to explain in what manner Art History trains someone to be a game programmer. Wait, you could certainly explain why every student has to take Mythology. Well, at least you could explain Storytelling, Charater Analysis and Development, Creative Writing, Media and Ethics, Society and Technology, Probability and Statistics, Wavelets, Graph Theory, Abstract Algebra, Art Appreciation, Electromagnetism, and a list of other such courses. Find me a self-titled trade school that includes those classes for graduation.

5-”…institutions devoted to training, not education.”
The faculty believe that they are providing an education, not training. Those that visit Digipen come to understand the same thing.

You say Digipen *is* a trade school. Back up your statements with an argument. Just because every argument can have two sides does not mean that each side is equally valid.

You say that, “I don’t see [being a trade school] as a negative.” If you understand the never-ending learning and adaptation required by the game industry, then you will certainly recognize that game development is NOT a trade. Any school that treats it like one will not have useful graduates; they will be outdated and useless.

I believe the front office will know where to send you when you come by, but I cannot guarantee that food will not be flung. It’s in my nature.

Best of luck,

Physics Monkey

Be cruel, even sarcastic. Don’t worry about me. You seem sincere despite the fact that your arguments are all over the map, and sometimes off into the blank areas marked simply as “Here there be monsters.” You obviously think highly of your school. I’m sure it’s a wonderful school. I hope it and its students are very successful.

I’ve rechecked the curriculum offerings. Digipen appears to be an enlightened trade school in that it does acknowledge the need for a few courses other than the basic programming and art courses, not something that Full Sail does. But it -is- a trade school. I went and checked to be sure my definition of what that means is accurate. I believe it is. Here’s one of many similar definitions easily Googled:

“A vocational school, also sometimes referred to as a trade school is one operated for the express purpose of giving its students the skills needed to perform a certain job or jobs. It is usually a post-secondary school…”

I don’t see that as a negative. You obviously do. Maybe someday Digipen will grow into something else, if its vision demands it.

In the meantime, I think it’s best that we agree to disagree. If I’m ever in the neighborhood, I’ll ask at Digipen’s reception for Physics Monkey, and maybe we can have lunch -if- you promise not to throw food.

Lee

1- The RTIS program is for making games. CE (computer engineering) is something different– it’s made for embedded systems design. I would happily detail that degree, but I’m afraid it might distract from the topic at hand. RTIS has at least 3 required courses that deal in history of other types of media. 8 courses (each of the GAM courses) in which the lecturers often discuss the history of games themselves. There *is* even a required course on society and technology– the effects of games on society and vv. This is not to mention the elective courses that everyone *must* take to graduate. Those that are interested may pursue Art, Literature, Film, or a whole host of other subjects further.

2- That link to womengamers.com was made over six years ago, before the first four-year graduates had graduated. The instructor that answered the question, ‘What are the backgrounds of the Digipen’s professors?’ was in the GAM department, and answered it specifically in response to his department. He unfortunately did not talk about their academic backgrounds, only their business ones. I think it’s unfortunate that a person espousing the importance of context so clearly ignores it when making an argument. Art without context is like a window with the blinds drawn.

3- I don’t consider Full Sail a rival. I do see Digipen and Full Sail in the same sentence way too often though. They exist for completely different reasons.

4- How many Digipen graduates are lead designers? When they’ve been out of the school for 0-5 years? A few, and most for smaller studios. That being said, there is a team working at Valve that has full freedom in designing their own game. Our students have won many awards at game developer conferences and gatherings. They didn’t win them for making clones of brain-dead games. They didn’t win them for flashy graphics. They won them because they were creative, artistic, and intriguing. I’ll give you a list, but you can get a list if you bothered to look at what independent games were being presented at the GDC in the US. Turn this question around, Lee: How many game designers are there 3 years out of undergrad? Not many, but I’ll put money down Digipen has the most.

5- Since when are literature, history, or philosophy courses, ‘far afield’? They are fundamental to all artistic endeavors.
That being said:
How many scientific courses have you taken? Have you taken a technical course on quantum physics and relativity? Talk about context– these are the rules that bind our universe. The analogies given in popular science are not the rules themselves.

5- Games that touch souls? Tendons? How many people anywhere are writing games that touch souls? Your writing touched me, but in a *bad touch* kind of way ;)

All that being said, I might even agree with you to a certain extent. I am not impressed by the drivel that comes out of the mass production ‘entertainment’ business today. It is clearly a business and not an art form. Lee, this is a problem with capitalism, and nothing else.

Digipen is *not* a liberal arts college. To call it merely a trade school, however, is to sell it short. If I were a betting man, I’d put down money that your BC/CIA training gave you less exposure to science than dP students get to liberal arts.

I will repeat myself with renewed vigor: before you make comments on what Digipen is or isn’t, do some research. Come by and take a look around. Allow me to buy you lunch and chat. Find some of the Literature professors and discuss narrative in games. Search out some students and see what’s on their minds. Look at the games that they create from scratch, and give yourself an opportunity to evaluate them for what they are and aren’t.

If you have more recommendations on what Digipen can do *for* the industry, I’m more than willing to listen.

All the best,

Physics Monkey

First, I checked my remarks, and I do say clearly I know more about Full Sail than Digipen.

However, I just went and looked at your course offerings in your key degree programs. For the BS in Computer Engineering I found TWO (2) courses, Art Appreciation and Creative Writing for Game Design out of FORTY-SEVEN (47) offered over four years that might deal with the history of other media and how it has mirroed and shaped our world; and none that explore reasons people build games and the responsibilities inherent in doing so.

The BFA did better with FIVE (5), including a media ethics class.

Physics Monkey,

Your heart may be in the right place, but look at any self-respecting university on the planet and compare liberal arts courses to math/science/engineering. I lumped Digipen with Full Sail because both are clearly trade schools. I’m not interested in your rivalry. We actually share opinions about Full Sail. But…

Check this link for Digipen’s answers to questions from WomenGamers.com: http://www.womengamers.com/interviews/digipen.php.

Look at where the teachers come from. Wonder why the curriculum is so obviously trade school? This is not putting your professors or your school down. Please understand that my only objection is both school’s representing themselves as something they are not. Be a trade school and be happy. You aren’t MIT.

You mentioned film schools. Strangely enough I got my MFA at a film school: California Institute of the Arts. We had more courses in a year concerning context, history etc. than you have in your entire program. Before that I received my BFA in theatre at Boston University. Most of my courses at both places were focused on my degree tracks: making movies and plays, but there were still always requirements for other courses that were far afield: literature, history, philosophy. Why? For cultural context. Without that context all you have is budding talent stifled by understanding the technology, but not what using it truly means to the big world out there. This industry is awash in very intelligent, very gifted people making meaningless games. The only time we get press is… oh don’t worry, Jurie, I won’t bring -that- up again… We are impacting wallets for sure, but our work is virtually ignored other than as an acknowledged media trend. What an empty victory.

A lot of your graduates get hired? Great. I mean that. That’s something to be happy about. But how many are lead designers? Turning out any game writers? Are any of your graduates creating games that touch our souls or just our tendons? Let me know when the first Digipen graduate does something that advances human beings as well as technology. Then prove it was your robust programs in the humanities that influenced her or him. Then you’ll have something special.

Lee

I would advise you to get in to the best school you can, show them what you can do in the classes, and expand your horizons. You can get a McTechJob if you want, but that won’t take you anywhere. Computer maintainance and repair will not get you to ‘the next level’. You are overqualified because the world doesn’t need top-notch computer repair guys. You have proven, to yourself at the very least, that you have technical ability and interest. I am convinced you will succeed, so long as you can find a field that interests you.

Best of luck,

PM

Feedback?

I would immediately ask what you think of Film schools…

Granted, creating games is a much more technical exercise than film production, but it still requires creativity and independent thinking. I think the Digipen student’s ability to think and create comes out in the games that they produce. Even with limited time and resources, they are able to create some fun and interesting games.

I suppose it comes down to a specific philosophy on the purpose of higher education. I believe that a real education is one that teaches you to think rather than how to act. The acting part comes naturally once you know what to do.

I must politely disagree with your statement:
“implying that Digipen is anything more [than a training facility] is a reach, and one predicated on the assumption that because one is working with computers one is smart.”

This is a complete nonsequitor. You are saying that because Digipen graduates end up working with computers, I am claiming that they’re smart. Any claims I lay beyong that are a “reach.”

Each student is different, and certainly, those that are not able to get a job have to apply to more places, thereby increasing their relative visibility. That being said, I would argue with your implied claim that these graduates are merely, “working with computers.” They create games from the ground up, without SDKs or premade engines.

I will explicitly state that Digipen is more than a training facility.

My first bit of evidence is the first-hand experience of having seen the students go through this education. I would encourage you to refute this one– please stop by and see what the students at Digipen are doing.

My second peice of evidence is the games they produce. Again, I will encourage you to download and play them.

My third chunk is the graduates themselves. Look at where they are hired, and talk to the employers. In the Seattle area, try NST, Valve, Arena.Net, Suckerpunch, Bungie, and a whole slew of other employers.

My fourth piece of evidence is still emerging. Think of how long a particular skill set in computer game creation is useful. At some point, the products of a training institute would become obsolete and outdated. Those that graduated Digipen with the first 4-year degrees in 2000 are the start of this testbed.

There is one final peice of evidence, but one that you’d have to email me to get.

Best of luck,

PM

Regardless, I can tell you that you’d definately see a desire for professionals to have a change of scenery for a while, especially in an industry which is so happy to work so excessively.

I guess that would depend on whether the games industry needs monkeys who are trained in whatever you’re training the monkeys to do. I.e., apart from your ego involvement, it’s possible to look at a roomful of artists working on meshes and skins as trained monkeys if they’re doing little more than executing someone else’s plans. Same goes for engineers carrying out the experiments designed by a physicist. Yes, they’re all wonderful people, but whether they can think on their own, let alone think on the cutting edge, is an open question.

If Digipen is training people for the industry in any capacity then they’re doing the same thing any trade school does, and should be applauded for it. But implying that Digipen is anything more is a reach, and one predicated on the assumption that because one is working with computers one is smart. If the games industry has taught us anything for certain, it’s that that is not true.